religious hypothetical

[topaz]

What would happen in the Catholic church if the Pope lost all higher brain function, was still able to breathe on his own but had to rely on a feeding tube to survive?

(Note: better minds than yours have already asked "what's the difference?" so don't even bother to go there.)

I can't possibly imagine that anyone would make the decision to take him off life support. But who would run the place? Is there such a thing as Acting Pope? How does the chain of command work?

Comments

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

Omigawd, that's GREAT! J and I were JUST discussing this very subject before I logged on. And the fact that it would be very interesting to see how the Church guys would handle it if the pope became another Terri. Would they re-think their absurdly blind stance on life at all costs? Would some 'unethical' martyr try to put the pope out of his misery and try to save face for his church?

Great minds apparently not only think alike but in synch. ;-)

[hidn.livejournal.com]

Mel Gibson would step forward at the head of an Irish army, rampage across Europe, sack Rome and install himself as Pope.

Meanwhile, the one true Schavio faction would ensconce themselves outside a hospice in Naples (ever notice how Florida and Italy are the same shape?). They would be slaughtered like lambs in a misunderstanding with the new reformed anglicans.

Oh, and remember, The talse pope is always the French one.

[rsc.livejournal.com]

I have to say I like the idea of Avignon having a rival pope again.

[tamidon.livejournal.com]

apparently the catholic doctrine is that it's OK to refuse to put in the tube, for yourself or loved one, but wrong to remove it after it's in. One is leaving it up to god and the other is actively ending life. I hated the Schiave case, but the Catholics have been consistent on this one.

[tfarrell.livejournal.com]

It has been theorized that the current pope may have left behind a living will for such an circumstance. He would undoubtedly insist that his life be preserved, but resign the papacy. He can resign, there is precedent.

If he didn't leave behind such a note, if he somehow got in a Terri Schiavo situation, I suspect he'd be quietly poisoned and we'd be told he had a "heart attack" or something like that. There is no acting pope, his responsibilities and power devolve to no one.

All of that said, look at what has been happening: last time he departed the hospital, his spokesman said he would not be returning. So, they'd clearly already decided that he was returning to the vatican to die. By keeping him there, they (and by they I include the pope and his wishes) can ensure that he simply can't get any procedures or equipment that could put him in such a situation, so the dilemma can't arise.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

Sorta like it's wrong to remove a pregnancy after it's started, but it OK to interfere with the pregnancy getting started in the first place?

No, wait...

[snork]

Consistency and outright stubborn ignroant pigheadedness are not necessarily the same thing.

[neimon.livejournal.com]

I'm virtually certain there's an official pope-smothering pillow somewhere. Just in case. Ancient churches are nothing if not prepared.

[psongster.livejournal.com]

they'd clearly already decided that he was returning to the vatican to die

Yes. From what I've read (and it's plausible based on other things I know), aggressive medical intervention could keep him alive somewhat longer -- maybe just a day or two, maybe more.

But the Pope has apparently decided to let himself die sooner rather than later.

So much for the admonitions to "choose life" always, under any condition. I've never accepted the idea that life is always better than the alternative. But it's interesting to see the Pope making the same judgment.

[harimad.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking a lot about both Tim's question and psongster's crack about so much for the admonitions to "choose life" always, under any condition. I'm considering calling my very Catholic, very intellectual friend for some education.

[pinkfish.livejournal.com]

It wouldn't be the first time a pope was killed for the good of the church.

I don't know Catholisism but...

[vespid-interest.livejournal.com]

Doesn't the Pope act with divine consent? And God doesn't have to choose life, just people, so the Pope should be able to do whatever he wants and not violate any admonitions.

[hammercock.livejournal.com]

The question is moot now...

[harimad.livejournal.com]

CNN, in discussing administration continuity, wrote In past centuries, popes sometimes delegated authority to Vatican officials who were nephews or other relatives.

This sentence needs a touch of editorial work In past centuries, popes sometimes delegated authority to Vatican officials who were "nephews" or other relatives.

Re: I don't know Catholisism but...

[crouchback.livejournal.com]

The Pope is not exempted from following rules of the Church (though, in ages past, some of them have certainly disobeyed many of those rules. Caesar Borgia, father of Lucretia Borgia, comes to mind).

Popes can speak ex cathedra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_cathedra), although, so far, it's only been done 5 times and the promulgtion of the doctrine itself, in 1870, was one of them.

[crouchback.livejournal.com]

Normally, during a papal interregnum, the College of Cardinals runs things under the direction of the Cardinal Chamberlain. If your hypothetical had happened, I imagine that's how things would have been run.

Resignation is a possibility, but it has to be freely made by the Pope in question.

Re: I don't know Catholisism but...

[crouchback.livejournal.com]

Whoops! Confusing my Borgias. Rodrigo Borgia was the Pope, Cesare was hsi illegitimate son and Lucretia's brother.

[crouchback.livejournal.com]

Heh. Well, it's been a couple centuries since they had "nephews" like that. (I wonder how many people are aware that the word nepotism arises from that kind of pracice.)

[tfarrell.livejournal.com]

I read recently there's a small ceremony they're supposed to perform to verify that he's actually dead, which involves hitting him in the head with a gold hammer to see if he reacts.

Just think: they actually keep a gold hammer around just to bean dying popes with. Remarkable.

[psongster.livejournal.com]

I didn't intend my comment to be a "crack."

I've thought about these issues a lot, not least when my (atheist) grandfather was dying in a (Catholic) continuing care home, and we could not get him adequate pain control because the doctors and nurses were concerned that higher doses might speed his death. He had decided to refuse water after a massive stroke, so there was no chance he would survive for long. I held his hand for much of those eight days. I remember vividly when he was in great pain, and I had to explain to him why he had to wait two more hours for another dose of morphine. In my view, it would have been much more merciful to give him painkillers whenever he asked for them (using signals from the one hand that could still move), even if that meant that his life was shortened by two or three days.

I see the political rhetoric of "choose life" as willfully blind to such complexities -- as heartless at best, and often cruel in its results.

And so I am interested when the Pope makes the same sort of choice I can imagine wanting to make in his circumstances -- to return to my home, receive good palliative care, and die in peace. I hope that, if I end up in similar circumstances, I will be able to make and enforce the same choice, but American politics makes me think it unlikely.

[harimad.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes and yes; I agree with everything you said. I probably should have explained earlier that from me, "crack" is a positive assessment.

In addition to telling anyone who happens to be nearby when I think of it that I want to be unplugged, I should remember to tell those making such decisions NOT to take me to a Catholic hospital. *I* want to make these decisions for myself, based on *my* ethics system.

[harimad.livejournal.com]

Other than you and me? I think the author of the article I quotes can be counted as one.

[dancingwolfgrrl.livejournal.com]

I was just going to say, "Well, there's a hammer." Apparently now it's a ceremonial tap, but...

the holy catholic church

[(Anonymous)]

he is blessed by God most high so no one will in there right mind kill him but the infidels even if he is on life suport because its not Gods will for him to die yet

Re: the holy catholic church

[qwrrty.livejournal.com]

rosiewoodboat, is that you?