You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

[topaz]

Short review:

Heath Ledger was the one we've been waiting for.

The movie was lots of fun.  What I wasn't quite expecting was that the movie isn't really about the Batman and the Joker.  It's about the Batman and Harvey Dent.  Early in the movie Dent comments, on the subject of the Batman and his questionable tactics, "You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."  Throughout the movie we get lots of hints about how Harvey Dent is positioned as the mirror opposite of Batman: Jim Gordon mentions that people call him "the white knight", and at a press conference about Gotham's war on crime Dent says, "The dawn is coming."  (Contrast that with the movie's advertising tagline, "The Storm is Coming".)  But we have no idea just how important and poignant that comment will be until seeing Dent's transformation into Two-Face, and the viciously logical conclusion that Batman draws from it.  It's fascinating and really a lot more complex than I expected even from this crowd.

That said:

The story was a mess.  Sorry, but it was.  There was a really splendid two-hour movie trying to get out of this.  I still enjoyed the movie a lot, but I spent too much time in the third act being confused about which fiendish Joker plot Batman was trying to foil, and how Jim Gordon and Lucius Fox and Rachel Dawes and Lao and the scuzzy Russian mobster and and and everyone else fit into it.  As incredibly delicious as Heath Ledger was, I think that the movie would have benefited a lot from cutting down the middle hour a lot in order to move Harvey Dent's story forward.

Oh, and don't bring the kids to this one.  Holy smokes.

Comments

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain

I love love love this quote. It says so much. I haven't seen the movie yet (expecting to do so on Monday), and so I'd initially attributed the quote to you before I'd read your post. I still like to think that you said it first, cause it's really good.

;-D

[crouchback.livejournal.com]

It's pretty close to what Nietzche said "He who fights monsters should take care lest he becomes a monster himself." Although it's a bit less optimistic than Nietzsche was.

[harimad.livejournal.com]

This quote brings to mind something Lois McMaster Bujold wrote in one of her Vorkosigan* books, A Civil Campaign. The main characters tells someone else that the problem with the statement "Death before dishonor" is eventually that separates people into the dead and the dishonored (dishonored = lying, in the instance discussed).


* The main character is a very honorable person, from a long line of famous, honorable elites from a culture that places great importance on one's word and one's vows. His family does *not* honor this in the breach. In his (military) career he's found that keeping his word and maintaining the honor of the Vorkosigans does not always jibe with protecting his troops and achieving his goals.

[qwrrty.livejournal.com]

It does say so much, and still the movie makes it even more touching and profound, in ways I hadn't anticipated. What I think I liked the most about it was that when they first give the line, it's almost a throwaway -- it goes by so quickly, with no dramatic punctuation, that you'll miss it if you're not paying attention. I was very pleased at the way they delivered the theme.

Anyway, you are most welcome to pretend that I said it first. I will be totally flattered. :-) Looking forward to hearing what you think about the movie.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

So, the movie. I thought that ol'Heath was absolutely fabulous as the Joker, though I didn't see him as all that scary. In fact, much of the movie left me kinda meh. (and I'll likely post to that effect). Very little surprised me throughout the movie.

What I thought was neat was that 2 of the 3 incorruptible characters were older and not in their young hotshot prime. They'd lived longer than most in the flick and yet they'd not seen themselves become villains yet. The third character being Rachael, who we never saw die and for all we know might come back as a twisted villain, though I don't think such was in the canon.

My favourite moment was when Bruce and Mr. Morgan Freeman were discussing the new suit and the fact that, being joined from pieces, it had places of vulnerability. And when they discuss whether it would protect against dogs, there's a quick line about how it might not do against cats. Gee, I wonder who the next villain will be. >;->

[qwrrty.livejournal.com]

My favourite moment was when Bruce and Mr. Morgan Freeman were discussing the new suit and the fact that, being joined from pieces, it had places of vulnerability. And when they discuss whether it would protect against dogs, there's a quick line about how it might not do against cats. Gee, I wonder who the next villain will be.

Oh, GOOD catch! I missed that altogether!

[(Anonymous)]

he actually says "we talking rottweilers or chihuahuas? *should* do fine against cats." so..... yeah.

[crouchback.livejournal.com]

Ah, but he's not a Russian mobster..he's the Chechen! Chechens being one of those groups which can be depicted by the media in utterly unflattering terms because they don't have presure groups in the US.

[qwrrty.livejournal.com]

"Why Albania?"
"Why not?"
"What have they done to us?"
"What have they done FOR us? What do you know about them?"
"Nothing."
"See? They keep to themselves. Shifty. Untrustable." (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120885/)

[primal-pastry.livejournal.com]

Back to Mark Helprin: somewhere in that book he says "the difference between a comedy and a tragedy is knowing where to end. All stories end in death if you tell them long enough."

I *could not* get that out of my head while I was watching The Dark Knight.

Also, I didn't have any problem with the story. It was like watching a comic book onscreen... I just had to hang on and trust that it'd make sense eventually. :)

[zsquirrelboy.livejournal.com]

What was the key thing for me? Ledger's joker was frightening. I can't think of what comic book movie where that was true of one of the villains.

Are we avoiding spoilers here?

[qwrrty.livejournal.com]

I agree, Ledger's Joker was terrifying and that was absolutely key.

As far as I'm concerned we're not avoiding spoilers in the comments - if you're reading people talking about the movie then you're risking spoilers :-) But I will add a note to that effect.

Batman

[(Anonymous)]

I really liked the movie and i disagree with other people's yiew on the joker. I think he was scary in the fact that he had nothing to loss and that batman couldn't beat him because he couldn't kill him. I also think that the story was not a mess, the story wasn't about the joker. It was about batman seeing that some one so good could become bad (harvi dent) and that he can't be sood he has to be what gothem needs him to be.